You knew we were cool, hip and edgy – but you go right ahead and add ‘fab’ to the mix. With it being ‘Gay and Lesbian Month’ all ’round the world, we thought an in-depth look, from 2 high-profile gay men, at how life here ‘playing for the other team’ actually is: CPod Youtube Video
- Gay nightlife: Where to find it
- A failed attempt at a cover story
- Chasing Jonathan Rhys Myers
- Acclaimed vocalist ‘Coco’ joins us before his 3-month tour
- Gay/lesbian vocab
- Jenny cries a river…but why?
So, happy ‘Gay and Lesbian Month’ to all – from the most fashionable show on the web.
LINK TO DOWNLOAD THIS EPISODE (right-click, save as):
chinesepod_I51_20070526.mp3(10.08mb)
This is one of the few posts I’ve every made on any forum which I’ve written off-line and given as much careful consideration.
I am disappointed with this weeks show. Why? I am disappointed because the whole show was given over the basically one subject (notwithstanding Coco’s musical prowess and the relatively few moments you spent discussing it, which I enjoyed).
I am NOT disappointed that you covered the subject of “gay” life in particular, merely that you spent the whole show doing it.
For me, it made the show very boring. Being anything (or even nothing in these terms) is simply a part of life these days - and being “gay” is one of the choices we make, as human beings, as individuals.
I am putting the word gay in quotes, because to me, gay means to be happy or full of, and to have a love of, life - not merely having any particular sexual preference. However, I understand that it is now used almost exclusively to mean “not heterosexual”. Which is a shame.
No, I’m really disappointed because I listen to TGSSITW because I want to increase my knowledge of Chinese events and culture, to have the odd chuckle over it now and then, but not in a condescending way merely “it’s a different culture” kind of way.
I want it to support me and encourage me to learn Chinese, specifically Putonghua. If it doesn’t do that, it doesn’t deserve to be part of Chinesepod.
Don’t missunderstand me, the subject of this particular show is an important one, and not one I want to belittle, but I don’t think it is important enough, these days, to warrant a whole show. The same was not done for other “celebrations”, why this?
Had you included other news, tidbits of information, commentary, etc., even if it had an underlying theme of “gay times” I would have been much happier. We merely got a discussion, with the participants making their particular point of view, which I am sure most of us understand anyway. There was not enough substance.
Coming at this particular time in the show’s “life” this particular edition is not helpful, I think, in trying to gain more prominence and acceptance as an integral part of Chinesepod.
Sorry, but it’s the way I feel. I am sure you will bring TGSSITW back to being an integral, interesting, amusing, entertaining and enlightening part of Chinesepod soon.
Oh for an edit button.
“given over the basically” should read, of course, “given over to basically”. In the second paragraph.
Just another point. I’m not sure that gay people give a monkeys whether their sexuality is “fashionable”. In fact, if you think about it, it could be considered an insult.
I don’t know that fashionable was the point. More the point of whether it would be ridiculed or misunderstood, which I imagine could be important.
Of course, thanks to Aric, when I was going down Sichuan zhong lu today and saw the Pearl TV tower, for a moment all I could think of were phalluses. Thank you Aric.
Thinking that this wouldn’t do, I looked again and changed my mind. It looks more like a syringe. Now I’m thinking about drugs.
Oh well. You can’t win with an imagination like mine.
Perhaps, like RobAnt mentioned, a more diverse range of topics might have added more interest, although the topic was interesting enough, given that it’s not a frequently discussed topic.
I wouldn’t have minded knowing what the official Chinese government policy is.
Coco’s music is great, by the way.
Aric,
how can I get my hands on Coco’s music? Do I have to wait until I come to China or is there any other way to get it? You should have had some information on the video or something…
I think the show was great, but I was also surprised that you only had this one topic…
Will - my point about “fashionable” was with regards to the description of the show - above.
Aric and Jemny,
A very interesting and well done show. Though I would encourage you to do more of these focused explorations and ’serious’ topics, it may come at the price of decreasing your former audience. From the comments already written about this weeks show, it seems that the expectations of your listeners is to do shows more like those of a few months ago when you were at the peak of link hits. I do hope you both get the opportunity to develop this style and content of presentation even if it is through a different forum than the Saturday Show.
One weakness in this particular show is that Jenny was not well integrated into the conversations and became more of a sidekick, something else long-time listeners are likey to resist.
And a general comment for CPod about the current weakness of links to the Saturday Show that has probably been voiced many times: Non-members have no obvious way to be hooked into any of the CPod extras that are offered now or in the future, since even the discrete link that is still available is on the sign-in page not the home page.
Enjoyed the show, and thanks for all your excellent work.
There is a need for a show like this with topics about contemporary Chinese culture done in a Western interview style and format.
ChinesePod Saturday has never been focused on language anyway, it’s always been a more-or-less unstructured discussion of life in today’s China, and this is just fine. If it can become a hipper version of CCTV’s interview show ‘Dialogue’, I think this is going in the right direction.
Since it doesn’t have much to do with learning Mandarin, from a marketing standpoint, ChinesePod might want to develop this show as a separate project, maybe with sponsors, so you can attract a wider audience and a more diverse range of guests.
Keep up the great work!
“I am NOT disappointed that you covered the subject of “gay” life in particular, merely that you spent the whole show doing it.” (…)
I want it (the show) to support me and encourage me to learn Chinese, specifically Putonghua. If it doesn’t do that, it doesn’t deserve to be part of Chinesepod.”
I have to disagree with RobAnt.
This is the first time I listen to the Saturday Show and from what I understand, it is a show about Chinese culture more than a show about Chinese language. I think the level of openness of a city or country towards various subjects such as religion, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation is important information. It is part of that country’s culture (values and norms) and I feel it does deserve to be a part of a show on Chinese culture.
It may be more interesting for the people directly concerned by the matter (who in this case happen to be a percentage of the population that invests *a lot* of money in the tourist industry) but I think it should be of at least some interest to most people. If a country or city tends to discriminate against people based on ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation, I’d like to be aware of that, whether or not I am part of the group of people that is being discriminated against.
As for the idea that it is a shame that words evolve in ways we may not like… well, I think word/language evolution is a whole other debate. Same goes for the idea that people “choose” to be gay.
[quote=Maryse]I have to disagree with RobAnt.[/quote]
I’m confused.
Where do you disagree with me?
Slightly more nerdy:
It says filmed in HDTV at the very beginning. Is it because auf youtube or to reduce the sheer size of the file that the quality didn’t appear to be better than before?
Furthermore: I had some 3 mins at the end with just a black screen after everyone had taken off their headphones, the music had petered out etc. Was that intentional or did I miss some surprise at the very end?? (I am curious, you know.)
RobAnt,
You said that the subject was not relevant enough to do a whole show on it. I disagree. That’s why I explained why I think it is relevant enough. See the two longest paragraphs in my previous post.
You also said that if it doesn’t help learn the language, it shouldn’t be part of ChinesePod. Learning a language is also discovering another culture so I disagree that everything should help you learn the language. Some things should help you be more familiar with the culture, beliefs, values, etc. That’s why I pointed out that this seems to be the goal of the Saturday Night show.
Could the show have been more informative on the subject of gays and lesbians in Shanghai? I’d have to say yes so in that sense I do agree that it could have had more substance.
—
Anyway, I’m new here and I think this website is pretty amazing. I do agree with what Gary said: the link to this part of the site is not obvious. I may have missed it somewhere else but I only got here by clicking on the grey “ChinesePod - Extra” link at the bottom of the page. Why not have a big red link between Connect and Help?
Have a good day/night everyone!
I just listened to it again (it was pretty late last night… haha, 2:27 am not 2:27pm).. I watched it this time actually and it was nice to see everyone. I now have to say it was pretty informative after all.
Maryse - I don’t think we disagree much at all.
You can still hear the first 50 Saturday Shows, so it’s easy to catch up on what has gone before, and perhaps understand where I’m coming from.
My only real complaint is that the whole show was given over to this discussion, and - like I said - in today’s climate of tolerance and understanding, it simply isn’t as important a topic any longer.
The show has been reduced in length by ten minutes, due to the constraints of YouTube, and perhaps it would have helped the show to be that little bit longer.
The thing is, I understand TGSSITW to be a magazine, with something in it to cover a number of subjects, even if the content is themed in some way. And I think this show lacked some of the variety we’ve come to expect over the last year, or so.
Incidentally, if my mathematics are correct the 51st show is actually the show’s first birthday, or is that next week?
Hmmmm…
RobAnt - some would say that this show hit a sore point with you, no? I mean, 3 quick (and less than pleased) posts, a defensive one to follow with maryse…sure you’re telling us ALL of the reasons you didn’t approve of this show? Our purpose is not to support you, we have a grammar bank and help line you can call - this show is about culture…here. Are you telling me that a national cover story isn’t worthy of 15 minutes of talk? I mean, that averages out to about 4 minutes per person present on the show. There’s no other reason to have gotten such a reaction from you than the obvious - so come clean.
Will - glad that we’re constantly on your minds. Now, the next time, take the Bund Tourist Tunnel…
Kaixin - yeah, should have had that posted…will find out for ya.
Maryse - welcome to a better weekend. Don’t be put off by oversensitive posters, the majority of them here are quite pleasant.
Joachim - ha ha, yeah; another surprise with this cool new cam. At least we can shoot in letterbox now, which…I like. Per the final 3 minutes - if you rip it, put it on iMovie and play it backwards, you can hear Jenny giving out her mobile #.
Robant (again): now you’re backstepping. What you’re saying now is nothing like what you were saying in your first posts. “In today’s climate of tolerance and understanding”…are you mad? Or do you simply assume that people everywhere live under the same vibe? You’re quite quick to say that the show was boring, but neglected to realize it’s just now being accepted. Could you not tell that from the way some things were phrased? Could I have spit out numbers and facts? Of course I could have - but I wanted to bring in people who deal with it daily to tell their stories. So, it comes down to either a) I didn’t ask the questions you wanted me to or b) they weren’t as forthcoming with their answers as you would have liked (or c) the real reason for these posts). Per a) I’m not too concerend with what you think I should ask, as you come across needy and someone who would call Ken if I didn’t further your language aquisition. Coco and Alonso were very generous to come in and talk about a ‘touchy’ subject, so I’m sure they’ll be okay with you not approving. Do some homework about what it’s like here and realize that we *can’t* talk about everything you’d like us to.
Or, simply stop listening - I’ll email you CPod’s # for when you need “support”.
Sorry - got sidetracked. Some things you simply need to read between the lines with, I saw someone post that Jenny didn’t have much to say…why would that be? Perhaps, it’s still a new subject to be openly talking about? Others hinted that this theme wouldn’t be worth a whole show, but you’re wrong. How lifestyle’s are accepted here are as important as anything else. Did I have 100 more questions I wanted to ask both of them? Of course I did - but they’re guests, who are being themselves in a place that’s not always open to that, so I simply let them say as much as they were comfortable with. As mentioned, brevity says as much about something as covering it completely.
Here are some facts, courtesy of Collin at City Weekend:
30,000,000 gay people in China according to a 2002 survey.
400 members of Shanghai LGBT
30 cities participated in the Rainbow Kite Flying in June 2005.
10 percent of college students have had a homosexual experience.
There are 10 officially published gay works of literature in China, but countless online blogs.
No one has ever done the accurate research on the breakdown of gay and lesbian, but in Shanghai, common wisdom suggests gay men far outnumber gay women.
There is an unofficial ban on representing homosexual acts on TV and in films, so you’ll never see homosexual acts in publicly screened movies. Li Yu’s breakthrough film “Fish and Elephant” (2001) is still not officially distributed on the Mainland.
In 1997, homosexuality was decriminalized, but in many ways it’s still not legal. The last “Gay Pride” event, scheduled for December 2005 was shut down by the police.
In 1998, the first lesbian support group, Beijing Sisters, was started. It lasted until 2001.
In 2005, an underground film festival screened 37 films at 798 art district in Beijing. The festival is held every four years.
…again, note the ‘97 happenings and then ask me again why there wasn’t that much content.
Aric
RobAnt,
As you said, I haven’t listened to all the other shows yet so you may very well be right that it lacked variety compared to other shows. You are not the only one who said that. But from the perspective of a newbie, it doesn’t seem at all odd to take 15 minutes of a show to evaluate the openness or lack of openneess of a city toward something. As I said, I think it is very much part of the country’s culture.
But as a first-time listener I didn’t have any expectations regarding the style and content. So Gary may be right in saying that the regular listeners expect the Saturday Show to be something else than it was this week and that this style and content is relevant but should have its own forum in order to not lose the regulars of the Saturday Show.
It’s more when you say something like “in today’s climate of tolerance and understanding, it simply isn’t as important a topic any longer” that I disagree with you. The degree of acceptance toward this subject and many other subjects varies so much from country to country and from city to city. It also constantly evolves. So I think it is still quite important. Not everyone knows the comfort level of countries and cities toward this and other subjects.
I sometimes read the Scribblings of a Metropolitician.
This guy talks a lot about race and ideology (mostly in S. Korea). We’ve been talking about race and identity for years but I don’t feel that means it is not relevant and shouldn’t be talked about anymore. Race, ideology, identity, tolerance, etc. are still being debated all over the world on TV/radio shows, over coffee, online, among friends, among politicians and among academicians in universities. It must still have some relevance. If they had done 15 minutes on Sunday shopping, I may have found it strange… although it is still a hot topic in quite a few countries
But yes, as stated above maybe this type of style and more serious content could have its own forum.
By the way, it’s nice to meet you RobAnt!
———
I tried posting the above message earlier but it didn’t go through… maybe because I had a URL in it?
Anyway, I’m trying to post it again now without the URL so no need to approve it later on if this one goes through.
I have now read Aric’s post and would like to add this to the previous post:
Hi Aric, thanks for the welcome and for the info.
I said that I may agree with Gary that this type of style and content (social issues) could have its own forum. But after reading your post, I’ve changed my mind. If the subject of social issues had its own show, maybe those who need to hear about these social issues the most wouldn’t be listening.
Aric,
Thanks for the extended post. Your passion is consistently obvious in your work and in your writing. Again, I hope that you keep up your efforts since they will pay off (sometime….somewhere), even if the CPod audience remains resistent and impatient.
I would also point out that complaints…or maybe indifference, since really only one or two people have taken time to write criticism so far…are not surprising from an audience you have steadily attracted to a format of ‘transitions’ between light topics. In essence, you switched program formats this week, feeding oatmeal to a cocoa puffs crowd.
My remarks about Jenny being at the periphery of the conversation were not meant to be personally critical of her. Actually, her attentive listening and learning was a great example, something that could benefit the general media. But purely from the perspective of putting on a show, she was not being utilized as your star this week.
Aric, I’m just upset the show has lost it’s way a bit - that’s all. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you personally, that was not my intent, and I think we’re both guilty of being somewhat “defensive”.
I merely wanted to point out, in as sensitive a way I knew how, that I think the show is going off the beaten track. I have no other agenda apart from that. I genuinely want to encourage everyone at Cpod, and TGSSITW.
I try to do my little bit in trying to enrich the community. I’m not in a position to contribute financially, at the moment, that’s true, but generally I like what I see and I want to encourage Cpod all I can.
But, of course, if the show doesn’t do what I want and feel I need from the Chinesepod.com community then, of course, I will see little point in continue to listen. Up until now I have been more than satisfied, and I am sure you will see that I am trying to offer constructive criticism.
[quote]Now, the next time, take the Bund Tourist Tunnel…[/quote]
Should I take a model of the tower with me?
And can you tell me the symbolism of the flashing lights?
I’ve been listening to the Saturday Show for a while, but first time to leave a post.
First, as other posters have mentioned, the show needs to be put more upfront on Cpod. It was one of the biggest things that got me hooked on the site. Not only is it fun and entertaining, but it offers a lot of insight into what’s happening in China. Living in China myself, I’ve found that understanding the culture is crucial to developing true fluency in the language, aside from just being interesting and motivating. Aric, I remember last week you said there may be some answers this week about the show’s new role at Cpod. Anything new? I can’t understand why Cpod would separate itself so much from the show.
Second , I really like this particular show – great topic and good change of format. I hope that you continue to experiment with the format, do more interviews, and devote entire shows to exploring important issues in China. I actually like that a bit better than the normal format.
I agree with Gary above – I really respect how clearly passionate you are about the show and its possibilities. Keep it up!
Oh yeah, and lots of people told me the Bund Tourist Tunnel was over-rated. More symbolism for this week’s show?
Enjoyed the show. Don’t see what the big deal is RobAnt.
Regarding the TSS link, has CPod determined yet what the lightest shade of gray is that the human eye can detect on a white background?
Btw what’s wrong with having Study | Explore | Connect | Blogs (not Blog) | The Saturday Show | Help | at the top.
And can someone put the Connect section out of its misery? Yeah I can see the improvements, but the design of this message board system is fundamentally flawed - I don’t know any other messaging system where threads disappear into the ether and reappear days later when somebody by chance discovers the thread again.
Mike
Here are my two cents about The Saturday Show. In one word - more diversity and more Chinese spoken, (less English). Otherwise, what’s the point. I would like to have less emphasis on popular music, even though I’m a huge music fan. You could explore more daily Chinese life instead of presenting us with the latest pop music icons. I realize that it is a topic dear to Aric’s heart, of course. The topic of gay culture was a great introduction except I really want to hear Chinese dialogue intermixed with English, with more sub titles for words I do not know well. And Jenny’s participation was almost an after thought during the entire episode. She hadn’t been given a chance for much input last week. However, I did enjoy knowing about Coco and his music and some of the issues around gay life in Shanghai. It was my first exposure to Chinese jazz styled music which I did find interesting as part of the globalization of jazz as an American genre.
In conclusion, It just seems that the Saturday Show would benefit Cpod’ers by exploring more the nuances of spoken Chinese language and it’s various cultural meanings everyday life, i.e. art/music, work day events, urban living, cuisine, etc. I realize that this is not the mission of “the Saturday Show” but that was my two cents…
Si Yao
I’m probably just a homophobe, but this was definitely one of the more boring episodes. I kept fast forwarding to find the usual interesting stuff that we are used to on the Saturday show, but then I got to the end. I hope future episodes don’t spend the entire show on one topic.
I guess it’s hard to have variety when the show has been shortened for the video format. I really miss the pre-video saturday show…
Really enjoyed the show, very well presented and presented the subject in an open and non-patronising manner, whilst keeping it light and not becoming self-important. I think the situation TSS is in right now it can afford to experiment with format, and should feel free to move between a magazine format and shows focussing on just one issue. Otherwise the show could just get stuck into the same format week after week - Top 5, Good Word/Bad Word etc.
So I’ve listened to more Saturday Shows now…. granted, I’m no regular yet but I just don’t see what is the big deal regarding the change of style and content. They talked about two subjects instead of maybe 5 or 6 and one of those two subjects had a few “serious” moments. I don’t see what’s wrong in having this type of discussion as part of the Sat. Show or doing a more in-depth coverage of fewer subjects from time to time. As Al said, I think experimenting with format is a good idea. I guess you just can’t please everyone
The Saturday Show is, as we all know, the best Saturday show on the planet but I have to add that this last show was the best Saturday Show yet (despite the fact that Colleen is no longer on the show).
The subject matter was very interesting as it delved into more than a surface listening would reveal. What is and is not yet fully accepted in China. What can and cannot be done. How people behave differently when they travel or live abroad. All this say a lot about people and about China and about Shanghai. Like I said, very interesting show. The concluding section on Coco and her up coming trip was icing on the cake.
Don’t get ma wrong, I love the light hearted nature of the Saturday Show, but this show stands out so well because it had so much substance. I’d like to see you guys continue to make these forays into substantive issues and how they relate to China and Sinophiles.
I’ve noticed that a lot of homosexual chinese men have immigrated here to my city of Toronto because they did not feel comfortable or sometimes even “safe” in CHina. Toronto has the worlds largest “Gay Pride Parade” . . bigger than our santa claus parade or Caribana parade or any other street celebrations we have. It is attended by families and people from all walks of life and professions, gay or hetero.
Shanghai is still a long way from being San Francisco or Toronto when it comes to acceptance of different sexual orientations or gender identities.
So this was a very good topic to discuss and worth the 10-15 minutes the show lasts.
Hope you can line up some more guests! It seems like a good format to have guests.
It might not be the most accurate barometer of social change, but last Thursday’s English-language Shenzhen Daily News carried the story about the Polish government’s inquiry into whether the Tellytubbies promoted homosexuality (due to Tinky-Winky and his handbag) with obvious amusement, so perhaps it is becoming less of a taboo. Whether or not Chinese-language media carried the same story with the same attitude I don’t know, but it would be interesting to know - stories in the media are certainly in part determined by their target readership, and I guess the real indicator of change would be whether it would be acceptable to publish this story in Chinese language newspapers (I’m presuming here that English-language media in China takes a more liberal view, am I correct?).